VR Health Insider Podcast – Episode 5: Cix Liv

VR Health Insider Podcast – Episode 5: Cix Liv
VR Health Insider Podcast – Episode 5: Cix Liv

Welcome to a brand new episode of the VR Health Insider Podcast!

Be part of us as we welcome again Cix Liv of LIV, YUR and REK for Half 2 of our interview with him. He’s a digital health pioneer utilizing XR applied sciences to enhance the world of sports activities and health.

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Transcript: 

Episode 5 – Cix Liv – Half 2

Preston Lewis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the VR Health Insiders podcast, for the creators who’re constructing the way forward for the VR and AR sports activities and health industries that may revolutionize the way in which the world will play sports activities, work out and get match together with your hosts. Preston Lewis and Ryan DeLuca, the founders of Black Field VR, who’re constructing the world’s first full health VR fitness center and produce a long time of expertise from creating a few of the largest health expertise corporations on the earth. They’re bringing collectively the perfect and brightest minds that can assist you and your organization succeed within the VR health revolution.

All proper. Welcome to half two of our interview with Cix Liv, who’s a VR, AR XR guru and pioneer. In our earlier Half 1 Episode with Cix, he defined his background, which actually make clear how creators have to have a ardour for the tech and trade they wish to break into, and likewise to construct shortly and keep near the voice of the shopper to essentially perceive what they’re loving and hating.

Let’s decide up with our final query from the earlier podcast the place Cix shares insights as to one of the best ways to gather person suggestions for a [00:01:00] product.

Do you might have any small ideas so far as the way you go about intelligently amassing that suggestions? Is it simply straight up scouring the Fb posts, organising a Discord? Or do you might have particular issues that you simply do, for instance create surveys, do focus teams, or how does that course of go for you with amassing the suggestions?

Cix Liv: If you happen to talk with an individual, like, straight, it’s type of just like the distinction between speaking to somebody by means of 4Chan and speaking to somebody by means of their face. Like face-to-face. Proper?

if you happen to’re on 4Chan, you’re gonna shit on every thing. It’s nearly like straight from mind stem to face, proper? Like “this fucking is horrible, that shit blah, blah, blah, blah.” After which after they discuss to you, they’re gonna be like, “properly, I feel it is best to, you realize, enhance this” or no matter. Proper? So, I feel it’s getting each of these views. Proper? As a result of what you miss while you’re chatting with their customers are those that didn’t even care sufficient to speak to you, proper? Often [00:02:00] the customers that you simply’re speaking to are someplace between precise customers and professional customers. Proper?

And also you’re often getting not a number of the suggestions of the people who simply turned immediately. Proper? They don’t wanna fucking reply to you. They don’t give a shit, they don’t wish to let you know what their expertise was. So that you’re gonna have a blind spot on that class of potential customers. Proper?

So for these, you’re gonna must, like, discover it anecdotally by means of, like, Fb posts or unhealthy evaluations, and this is the reason I’d all the time chase the unhealthy overview folks. If you happen to’re constructing that client product to know what’s churning folks from the start and what enhancements can I make for these informal customers, after which the professional customers, ought to we cater to them or not? So I feel that getting these three views and perhaps bucketing folks in these three issues, is an effective option to iterate in your product.

Preston Lewis: That’s good recommendation.

Ryan DeLuca: And it seems like, I imply, the tough half, in fact is simply having that open [00:03:00] mindset. Proper? It’s very easy to, such as you mentioned, low cost the unfavorable evaluations, or when any individual’s telling you one thing you wish to like clarify it. And somewhat than get extra details about why do they assume that, and what would they like, how would we alter it? Generally you instantly wanna go into, like, defensive mode. However I agree with you, like, interacting with the group as a lot as you presumably can. Creating alternatives for these interactions, like, by means of, like, locations like Discord, on-line, or for us truly within the fitness center. Taking customers out to breakfast or lunch, and actually digging into it. And doing it from a spot of studying, not a spot of simply making an attempt to make them say good issues, and taking that mindset again to the product.

Preston Lewis: A few of our greatest suggestions has come from our type of squeakiest wheels, if you’ll. People who, after they do strategy it, it’s like this, you realize, they’re perhaps rage quitting on an expertise or one thing like that. And it’s, to your level, it’s good to have these folks which might be no less than passionate sufficient to provide us the suggestions that we will hearken to after which iterate. As a result of it’s often, it’s often on the mark for bigger teams of our customers. So, yeah. Recognize that recommendation, man. That’s superior.

Cix Liv: Yeah.

Ryan DeLuca: Effectively, let’s get into thrilling new issues [00:04:00] that you simply’re doing. So, um, not with YUR, um, and now you’ve began a brand new AR sports activities firm known as REK and we’d like to study much more about that. So how’d that come about? What made you resolve to begin that and, uh, inform us a bit bit in regards to the product.

Cix Liv: The newest firm I began is REK. So it’s type of a mixture of the 2 prior corporations within the learnings that I had there. So, LIV, the largest studying was how will we attain the folks outdoors the headset? How will we make it attention-grabbing for folks to look at? If you happen to mix that with health, which you realize, is for my part the largest use case of headsets, the info means that retention for health associated apps is twice as excessive as the rest in VR.

Yeah, truly, that’s one small level to say at YUR that we observed. So we had an underlying tracker that labored on the headset it doesn’t matter what. Proper? And what we acknowledged is that when folks used their headset for health, they used it over twice as lengthy.

So the typical utilization [00:05:00] size for a headset was about eighteen minutes. However after they used it for health it went as much as forty. That was an enormous studying for me, proper? So the massive studying from LIV was we have to present what persons are doing and we have to make it cool for different folks to look at.

The largest studying from YUR was headsets getting used for health have the perfect retention. And, you realize, I imagine basically it’s the largest use case of HMDs. Um, so if you happen to mix these two learnings of health and spectating, you create, you realize what is actually sports activities. Proper?

I began this firm underneath this premise that, you realize, sports activities are going to be the subsequent huge factor. And the explanation I imagine that’s as a result of I did some ideation in augmented actuality and it type of fell into the identical problems with VR, which is, like, why the fuck do I placed on a headset? Proper? And a number of AR apps have that very same problem the place they’re like, “okay, I placed on a headset so I can play puzzles with my good friend who’s additionally bodily there.” After which at that time, I’m similar to, “why don’t you simply fucking [00:06:00] put a puzzle there?” Proper? Like, why are we digitizing that have when it’s one thing that you are able to do in actual life?

Or like, “you wish to do augmented actuality basketball? Why don’t you simply play basketball?” Proper? Like, the particular person’s already there. A basketball is, you realize, like twenty bucks. Proper? It’s like expertise making an attempt to resolve an issue that doesn’t exist. Proper?

So, you realize, there was lots of people who have been doing VR sports activities and for me, I used to be like, “properly that’s not gonna work in AR, since you’re ultimately simply gonna churn out and do the actual factor.” Proper? For this reason I’ve an issue with VR sports activities; I imagine that the issue with VR sports activities is that the final word objective is while you develop into ok at it, you flip into the actual factor.

What I turned fascinated with is, like, Tron. Let’s make a sport that doesn’t exist in actual life. You watch any sci-fi film that’s ever existed. Proper? [00:07:00] And after they present the way forward for sports activities it’s often comparatively related. Proper? Individuals doing stuff and like dueling one another and killing one another digitally, doing stuff that you may’t do in regular sports activities. Like, you possibly can’t kill your good friend in basketball.

Sci-fi films type of demonstrated what the way forward for sports activities may seem like, and typically you don’t wish to struggle in opposition to the cultural zeitgeist of one thing and simply comply with by means of with it.

I began this firm with my co-founder Bart.

He was a senior AR engineer at Apple. And you realize, one of many issues he’s all the time been actually desirous about is, what are legitimate use instances of AR that may truly exist proper now? And so he constructed a laser tag recreation that gained the primary place for an open laptop imaginative and prescient contest final yr.

And principally I reached out to him and I used to be like, “hey, you realize, like, we should always take into consideration what’s gonna be, like, the Beat Saber of AR? As we transfer to AR, what’s gonna be a correct use case of headsets?” So after we first got here collectively,[00:08:00] we have been testing issues like House Pirate Coach Area.

So House Pirate Coach Area, it’s thirty by thirty ft, and it’s like a laser tag recreation the place you run round and also you shoot at one another in VR. Proper? And so we have been testing video games like that, and initially, it was such a fucking ache within the ass to discover a place that was thirty by thirty ft precisely. After which the way in which that you simply draw the Guardian with the Quest was a large nightmare. So it needed to even be even greater than that. And if it was outdoors, we’d must hotspot it, and it could solely work throughout sure occasions of the day and all this nightmare. However then one other enormous factor that we observed, is that while you truly bodily run in VR, it’s so uncomfortable. Your mind begins freaking out.

It’s like, “the place the fuck are you? Like, are you gonna run into one thing? Is somebody gonna mug you?” It must be AR while you’re working. When you introduce working, there must be augmented actuality.

Ryan DeLuca: [00:09:00] Like, I agree. Like, I’ve by no means skilled truly working in VR. Um, yeah, however you’d must, like, have a ridiculous quantity of belief.

Cix Liv: Yeah. I imply, if you happen to’ve performed any boxing recreation in VR and punched something, proper? I bear in mind I punched a desk one time and my entire hand was bleeding, however I didn’t understand till I took off the headset and I used to be like, “holy shit.”

Preston Lewis: Oh, wow.

Ryan DeLuca: There may be much less ache notion, so I suppose that may very well be good and unhealthy. There’s an entire subreddit of VR to ER. Proper? Uh, for a purpose.

Cix Liv: Oh, is it actually known as VR to ER?

Ryan DeLuca: Oh yeah. Persons are exhibiting them destroying issues or hurting themselves.

Preston Lewis: It messes with the immersiveness. Proper? As properly. As a result of, yeah, such as you mentioned, like, when you do this one time, then you definately’re not excited about being within the expertise. You’re excited about hitting one thing. Identical factor occurred to me after I was, uh, I used to be taking part in one of many baseball video games and it miscalibrated my place and so I used to be, like, inches from a wall and went to swing for a pitch and simply slugged the wall as laborious as I presumably may. Yeah, I’m not taking part in that anymore.

Cix Liv: The second you introduce [00:10:00] working, that worry turns into a lot extra realized.

Preston Lewis: Fascinating.

Cix Liv: Your physique actually begins freaking out. Trigger it’s, like, is that an actual wall or is {that a} digital wall? The best way these video games sync, they interlace the avatar on high of the particular person. Proper? But when that’s off by any vital diploma, you’re simply gonna run head first into you’re a good friend. And simply slam into them. Proper? I basically imagine that when you develop out of the restricted footprint of VR, it must be AR, if you happen to’re like working and doing stuff like that.

However there’s large, large challenges with AR. One of the crucial apparent ones, if you happen to begin constructing for this, is that, like, any of those go by means of headsets, they don’t truly phase the gamers correctly. So what finally ends up occurring is that every thing renders in entrance of the particular person. So say that you simply’re, like, competing in opposition to another person. Proper? And that particular person is there and also you wanna put a objective behind them. Oh, it sounds easy. Proper? However you [00:11:00] can’t, as a result of the objective must render in entrance of them. It will possibly’t reduce the particular person out and render the thing behind them.

So you must do immensely sophisticated technical stuff to resolve one thing that wouldn’t exist in VR. Proper? Since you don’t have that very same drawback in VR the place you must, like, phase the particular person out. So you must introduce an invisible avatar that renders on that very same particular person, the place the particular person is, after which you must make it possible for the particular person is synced correctly.

After which, you’re creating that cutout in entrance of the objective that’s behind them. In any other case, you’ll see the small objective, however it’ll render in entrance of the particular person, even when they’re, like…

Preston Lewis: That’s attention-grabbing. So it’s like real-time rotoscoping slash masking. That’s attention-grabbing.

Cix Liv: For this reason, you realize, after we introduced REK, or no matter, we did a very easy factor. We did spell duals. Proper? And the explanation we did spell duals have been, okay, you’re punching. It is a mechanic that anyone can perceive. [00:12:00] And one of many greatest issues for me that I decide as a hit standards, is the simplicity of preliminary adoption. So while you placed on a headset, the period of time that it takes somebody to know how one can play a recreation is extremely vital. Trigger I’ve demoed VR for hours and hours and hours, and the longer that point takes, the upper probability that they’re gonna churn out. Proper? In order that must be, like, as slim as doable.

So we began, okay, you’re punching on the particular person, no buttons. Quite simple. Proper? After which the explanation it’s a spell duel, is since you don’t must render any objects behind them. So it wasn’t similar to, hey, we awoke and we have been like, “Hey, let’s do a spell twin like Harry Potter or some shit.” It was primarily based off the constraints of the Quest headset. Proper?

Like, we will’t have objectives behind them. We are able to’t do all this different fancy stuff and not using a large quantity of engineering effort. So the bottom bar for us have been simply, “properly, let’s punch Fireballs at one another.” And in order that’s type of the explanation why that preliminary demo was [00:13:00] the way in which it was.

Preston Lewis: Small little word there for our customers, type of placing a pin in the truth that we talked about you getting scrappy with person suggestions and letting that type of information product choices. That was a superb instance you simply gave of taking part in within the sandbox of what the expertise can truly do and achieve and discovering enjoyable, as quick as doable within the expertise. So, that’s good.

Ryan DeLuca: A giant a part of REK, and why folks appear to love us a lot additionally, is with the ability to spectate. Proper? To allow them to truly watch it from the surface. What you actually put a give attention to with REK, was making it in order that different folks can watch it in actual time and cheer them on in actual time such as you would a sport. And the way did you get that to work and what have you ever discovered from that kinda potential?

Cix Liv: We realized from fairly early on that having any sort of great obstacles, wouldn’t solely be complicated for the gamers, however create visible conflicts for spectators. Proper? Once you’re watching a soccer recreation otherwise you’re watching a soccer recreation or [00:14:00] one thing, they don’t have like partitions. Proper? Hypothetically if a digital camera existed in soccer they usually had all these partitions in all places, you wouldn’t have the ability to see what the gamers are doing. It’s design challenges like that which might be vital, however they’re additionally limiting. Proper? Now you possibly can’t do a number of the shit that you simply’ve achieved in VR with all these cool environments. Mainly the surroundings nearly disappears at that time. Proper? You may’t have a fancy surroundings if you happen to’re making an attempt to spectate. So, I feel that that’s additionally gonna be one thing to consider that we’re gonna have to determine. We might must render one thing completely different for the gamers contained in the headset than what folks outdoors see. So, like, within the headset you’ll see opaque pillars, however within the spectator view they’re clear. Proper?

Like, all these design choices that you simply’re gonna must make, that you simply wouldn’t must even take into consideration in VR, if you happen to’re designing deliberately for spectating. The final word product that [00:15:00] we’re gonna launch will not be gonna be a spell duel recreation in the identical capability. Um, however yeah, we have been simply, you realize, what’s the most elementary factor that we will do? And what’s the mechanic that anyone on the earth can perceive? And yeah, that’s type of the place that got here.

We’ve been engaged on fairly a number of completely different recreation ideas and within the subsequent few months we’ll announce that, uh, and it’s not gonna be fairly the identical because the spell duel for the ultimate product, so.

Ryan DeLuca: Effectively, now I’m excited to listen to extra about that.

I don’t know if there’s the rest you wished to say about creating REK and like the choices that have been made round that.

Cix Liv: So we initially got here on this thought, like, “hey, we’re gonna do LBE and stuff”. Proper? After which we truly went by means of the method of making an attempt to get into the LBE recreation and, uh, whew, man, I don’t…

Ryan DeLuca: Location primarily based leisure, so precise retail footprint. Proper?

Cix Liv: Yeah, yeah. So we checked out Sandbox and we have been like, okay, Sandbox has all these areas, [00:16:00] however they’re capital costly, you realize? So then we have been like, “okay, so we’ll ship folks {hardware} and have them set it up at their venue.” And we have been like, “okay, however then we’re gonna have like a 15 yr previous recent outta highschool making an attempt to handle this shit. In order that’s gonna be a nightmare and a half making an attempt to, like, handle that remotely.” Um, so we have been simply, you realize, we tried to work some channel companions on it and we simply realized the LBE technique is one thing that we simply couldn’t afford, truthfully. You realize, we couldn’t afford to even attempt it.

So we’re going again to approaching it as creating client product. That’s additionally like the place my specialty comes from, like constructing in VR, is on the buyer aspect. So we’re gonna have a VR mode that connects to an AR mode, and our greatest focus is gonna be constructing the bridge between these two worlds. How do you truly get folks to carry a headset outdoors? And I feel that’s an unsolved drawback. And the way in which I like to clarify it, in probably the most succinct approach doable, is REK is [00:17:00] making an attempt to do to headsets what Niantic, you realize, Pokemon Go did to telephones. Which is get folks to, like, consider their gadgets as nearly like a health extension of themselves. Or, like, utilizing that to stroll round.

I do assume that sooner or later we might return into LBEs, however it’s possible gonna be extra like UFC tournaments, excessive manufacturing worth, you realize, advertisers, no matter. As a result of, yeah, it’s actually costly and we don’t have the, you realize, we didn’t have the cash to do this. Proper?

Preston Lewis: We’ve observed that as you’re constructing these experiences, one of many stuff you’ve achieved, you and the crew have achieved rather well is making them look cool. Not solely within the expertise, however within the advertising. We type of talked about the viral movies and issues that you simply did early on. It sounds kinda like a easy factor. Proper? To make issues look cool. As a result of that is future tech, this new tech, and it looks like it’d be straightforward to make it cool. However, with Black Field VR, we’ve needed to struggle the notion within the early days, no less than that VR Health was just for [00:18:00] tremendous techy folks.

However you guys have achieved simply an superior job making it approachable and funky. Even trying on the REK movies, these are additionally getting a bunch of consideration and simply kudos to you and the crew on making the tech look cool.

Ryan DeLuca: It’s a such a superb level. So many occasions some new VR health factor comes out or exercise recreation, and it’s similar to the worst graphics, the worst advertising. And clearly that’s not an important factor, you realize, in a number of experiences. Like, we all the time discuss Minecraft, for instance, you realize, beginning out extra pixelated type of stuff.

It’s all the time, like, man, folks wanna look cool. Like, you realize, such as you mentioned, it’s like no person desires to journey a Segway, however we are going to journey a cool chook scooter down the street. Proper? You realize, it’s like the identical factor, only a completely different configuration. So, such a superb level that Preston made is, like, all of your stuff seems to be fashionable and funky, that folks wanna be part of it.

Preston Lewis: It’s superior. Earlier than we jumped on right here, I used to be taking a look at a few of your stuff and also you type of poked enjoyable on the, uh, what was it? Horizon Worlds or one thing like that. And you’ve got, like, you might have the type of the dorky type of graphics and stuff, after which you might have you’re a hero shot. I assumed that was actually good. I imply, that’s one other factor that’s actually vital, once more, in driving [00:19:00] adoption is that instrument of contrasting. Proper?

And exhibiting folks, like, it doesn’t must be this, it may be this. Something that we’ve seen you do, it’s, you’ve achieved a very good job with that.

Cix Liv: You’re speaking in regards to the tweet the place it was like their Metaverse our Metaverse, after which it was just like the… yeah.

Preston Lewis: Yeah. That was superior.

Cix Liv: I imply, to be trustworthy, Meta is making it fairly straightforward, okay. I’ve to be considerably on their good graces, so I’m sorry upfront. However, uh, you actually gotta work in your advertising. The Horizons World stuff, I imagine, is so unhealthy that it’s taking down our entire trade.

I imagine Horizon Worlds is so poorly marketed, and such a foul product, that’s taking down the whole VR house. As a result of while you go into the cultural zeitgeist of speaking to folks about Metaverse. Proper? The very very first thing they’re gonna consider is the shitty trying Zuck avatar and, you realize, Horizon Worlds And that’s by intention, that Meta is, like, that is the Metaverse, proper? And it’s discrediting [00:20:00] what so many cool issues that we’ve constructed on this house seem like. And it’s actually disappointing, as a result of I feel it’s such a foul allocation of sources, and it’s such a foul search for headsets that it’s truly hurting all of us.

Ryan DeLuca: A few of the commercials they make are wonderful. You realize, after they present, like, what it’s wish to be in VR and put the headset on. Now you’re on this enormous factor and simply thoughts blowing. And also you’re proper, and clearly it’s nonetheless early days, so we’re all hopeful. Proper?

As a result of I agree with you, like, with the quantity of funding that they’re placing into it, they’ll make or break it, you realize? And in the event that they do an incredible job, the {hardware} will get to the place it must be. It’s gonna be very useful for all of us. However you’re proper, it may carry us down if it’s not the product that the mainstream desires.

Cix Liv: I’d look into the PICO if I have been you guys, I don’t know if you happen to used the PICO 4 in any respect, however, like, this factor is every thing the Quest 2 needs to be. It’s thinner, it’s smaller, it’s extra light-weight, it’s designed extra for health. It’s every thing the Quest 2.5 ought to have been. And as a substitute, they got here out with a Quest Professional, which is $1,500 that has face [00:21:00] monitoring and eye monitoring, however it’s even heavier than the Quest 2. And the load was already an enormous drawback. I simply I don’t get it.

Preston Lewis: You talked in regards to the AR, VR experiences that you simply’ve constructed or are constructing. What are your favourite AR, VR sports activities and health experiences immediately? And what makes ’em good?

Cix Liv: I actually like this recreation known as Blaston. I used to be taking part in it loads within the pandemic. So it’s a twin recreation, it’s one v. one, and also you’re taking pictures these numerous pace projectiles at one another and there’s no type of locomotion. You’re each on these small pillars, after which what it finally ends up changing into, is like, you’re having to do a number of dodging… it’s actually lively. I feel I hit like a thousand energy an hour taking part in that at full depth. I actually preferred that.

The very best sports activities sort recreation in VR proper now might be Nock. So if you happen to’ve tried Nock, Nock makes use of arm locomotion the place you maintain a set off and also you type of fly within the air after which it makes use of [00:22:00] bows. So that you’re taking pictures arrows at a ball.

I feel my greatest recommendation for individuals who construct VR and AR content material, is on the absolute elementary of what that is, it has to really feel good. If it doesn’t really feel good, nothing else fucking issues. You may make the perfect graphics on the earth, you may make an incredible storyline, you may make regardless of the fuck particle results which might be wonderful. If the bottom mechanics don’t really feel good, none of that shit issues.

And you realize what completely, completely represents that is Gorilla Tag. If you happen to have a look at a screenshot of Gorilla Tag, you’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” They’ve handed Beat Saber for probably the most evaluations on the Quest now. They’re now the primary fucking utility, they usually’re not even within the retailer. And the explanation for that goes again to the purpose that I made right here, at its baseline, there’s a locomotion technique. And the locomotion technique is principally you working in your fingers. Proper? [00:23:00] No buttons, no complexity in any way. And it’s train. It’s like tag, it’s principally like tag for youths. And the children are in there and it positively will get offensive loads, so perhaps that’s why they’re not in the primary retailer. But it surely’s principally youngsters working on their arms, yelling at one another. And that turned the primary. I’m not even kidding. They’re simply screaming at one another they usually’re simply working like this.

Preston Lewis: That’s superior.

Cix Liv: Feels good. Feels good. It doesn’t really feel good nothing fucking issues. And your app goes to flop.

Ryan DeLuca: Anytime I’m making an attempt to reload a gun in certainly one of these sophisticated type of first particular person shooters, I suppose my definition of VR, they’re all first particular person, you realize?

But it surely’s like, I’m hitting my controllers collectively, or I’m making an attempt to do that factor and the man’s coming at me, and I can’t fairly get the little components of reload. It’s like, it kills it for me, as a result of it’s like, I’m positive I may get good at, I’m positive if I performed at one other ten hours, I’d in all probability like, you realize, haven’t any drawback.

However at first it’s simply, you’re simply, it’s very awkward.

Cix Liv: You realize Denny from Cloud Head, proper? He’s a VR OG and he’s made a bunch of [00:24:00] experiences. His authentic video games have been type of like Myst, like, Name of the Starseed, the place you want, would principally remedy puzzles in VR with actually excessive constancy. And he constructed Pistol Whip, you guys know Pistol Whip, proper? And Pistol Whip is principally similar to Time Disaster on rails by way of, like, the psychological math and what it’s essential do. You realize, you’re going from extraordinarily complicated, and dynamic and wonderful graphics into, like, principally Cel Shaded Time Disaster.

It was his most profitable title. And, like, I feel a number of recreation builders are mad about that. And so they go, ” why can’t now we have wonderful graphics? Why can’t now we have dynamic storylines? Why can’t now we have all this different shit?” And it’s like, properly, if it doesn’t really feel good, persons are simply gonna use their console. They’re simply gonna go play their Ps. Proper?

Preston Lewis: You type of alluded to designing in recreation mechanics and interplay patterns which have decrease cognitive load, proper? In order that the sport continues to be enjoyable and folks keep immersed. So what do you’re feeling like [00:25:00] is lacking from the AR, VR sports activities and health trade immediately?

Cix Liv: Effectively, if I informed you that I’d be freely giving my secrets and techniques.

Preston Lewis: There we go.

Cix Liv: So I’ve divulged every thing.

Preston Lewis: Tremendous, inform us your first title, then. Tremendous. Simply inform us your first title.

Ryan DeLuca: Yeah, what’s your actual title?

Preston Lewis: Yeah, what’s your beginning title?

Cix Liv: I feel that you may type of, like, paint the image of what I feel goes to be the long run primarily based off what I’ve mentioned previously. Which is, you realize, low cognitive load, straightforward to know, purpose to placed on the headset is lively, you realize, attention-grabbing for folks to look at. After which the largest challenge in our house, by far, is working across the limitations of the {hardware}. Proper? As a result of like, oh my God, I can let you know what number of occasions I ideated on some shit, and I turned out as, like, can’t do it. It’s, like, ninety % of the shit you construct in our trade, falls into “sounds good, doesn’t work.”

Trustworthy to God, it’s like nearly each fucking concept that I’ve, it’s [00:26:00] like, “oh, you realize, I can’t do this due to Fb platform management. I can’t do this as a result of we don’t have decrease physique monitoring. I can’t do this as a result of the hand monitoring wasn’t skilled to work outdoors, so it solely works in low mild environments. I can’t do this as a result of, you realize, the second you place a weight in your hand, it could possibly’t detect your hand anymore. So you possibly can’t quantify the health.” Proper?

One other huge challenge with growing for AR, is that you simply don’t have entry to the digital camera information, it simply principally is available in as a shader. That’s it. And in order that limits an entire bunch of stuff that you are able to do. After which there’s no dying digital camera in it, so you possibly can’t simply phase gamers out. You realize, there’s some like laser tag ideas that folks have made with the Quest. And so they create this video and it makes it look so good.

It’s, like, “okay, there’s folks of their workplace they usually’re hiding behind containers they usually’re taking pictures at one another, that’s gonna be so fucking wonderful.” Proper? And then you definately go about to do it your self and develop it, like something like that, and also you’re, like, “holy shit, this [00:27:00] is unattainable”. Like, initially, you possibly can’t flip off the guardian for the Quest except you’re in dev mode. Okay? How many individuals are in dev mode. Proper? Like, folks on SideQuest, nobody else. So, you possibly can’t make an AR expertise that has the guardian off. And also you’re gonna what, draw a thirty foot guardian each single time in your workplace? Proper? In order that’s an enormous challenge. After which I discussed the difficulty of, like, rendering folks on high of it, after which the truth that there’s no shared SLAM maps?

So, like, if I’ve a SLAM map in my headset, I can’t share it to any headset round me within the Quest ecosystem. You may within the Vive, so the Vive has shared SLAM maps. So, I’ve to go map the whole scene with my headset, after which I can’t share that SLAM map with anyone else. So all these ideas that folks present are very conceptual, as a result of you possibly can’t truly do a number of this shit.

The factor that’s aged me probably the most on this [00:28:00] house is the “sounds good, doesn’t work” shit, which seems to be like ninety % of something that you simply consider.

Ryan DeLuca: It’s attention-grabbing, as a result of often what we hear is “it’s irritating as a result of most individuals don’t have a headset”, you realize? In order that’s already the limitation that we’re coping with. Is that, it’s not that everyone’s acquired a headset, however we will’t do these issues. That simply provides onto it, and it simply creates much less causes for folks to get the headset.

And we run into the identical issues. It’s, you realize, we’re caught in, uh, you realize, SteamVR ecosystem. And, you realize, we’re utilizing the Vive Professionals at, uh, Black Field. As a result of now we have to have some sort of option to do exterior monitoring of arms and fingers, with out coping with occlusion from regular hand monitoring for various actions, like squats and deadlifts and overhead press.

And so we’d love to have the ability to use a wi-fi headset. We’re nonetheless caught with the wired headset, as a result of we’d like to have the ability to have principally the Vive monitoring pucks, or we use the Tundra Trackers. And, you realize, there’s different issues like Kinect-style cameras that we probably may use. We’ve examined a bunch of these issues, however they’re not quick sufficient, you realize, as a result of we’re doing a number of punching and slicing and actions, or they take care of occlusion as [00:29:00] properly.

So, you realize, it looks like every thing’s actually shut. Like, man, good hand monitoring and, you realize, if we may simply get that in order that the sector of view is a bit bit higher. Full physique monitoring, even when they’re simply type of like guess a bit bit round, it may very well be actually attention-grabbing. However, such as you mentioned, these shared experiences are just about unattainable with the constraints of this closed down {hardware}, and we’re gonna have all that stuff quickly, you realize? And when are we gonna have all that stuff we wish? It may very well be tomorrow, it may very well be an announcement from any individual tomorrow. It may very well be three years from now and we simply don’t know.

You’ve talked about Beat Saber, like that modding group. I completely agree, like, with out LIV, with out that modding group, and all the opposite songs and all the opposite stuff, it wouldn’t be the place it’s immediately. It’s clearly nonetheless an superior recreation, however it might need been extra of an Audioshield and get some traction, however not a number of traction prefer it did. And so they’ve taken a number of that stuff away, particularly talking in regards to the Quest platform, which is the largest platform immediately, in fact.

Preston Lewis: The following query was gonna be describe your excellent AR, VR sports activities and health expertise. But it surely seems like it’s staying inside the sandbox of the {hardware} that’s at present [00:30:00] obtainable. Making an attempt to future solid a bit bit, however not going loopy, as a result of as you talked about, if you happen to construct too far forward all you’re gonna have is a bunch of tears and no shipped merchandise.

You talked in regards to the spectator facet of it, which we from day one we thought was tremendous vital in Black Field VR. We all the time say that the good factor about sports activities, constructing a sports activities title, is that you may construct it and it’s infinitely replayable. Versus having to really construct a title that’s type of this linear storyline that has x quantity of hours and then you definately gotta construct it once more. So, that’s enormous. We completely agree.

And never just for the enjoyable of the person, however we actually do imagine that AR, VR spectating modes may very well be wonderful. Proper? We’ve all seen the World of Warcraft slash League of Legends, gigantic spectacles of eSports and stuff like that, so seems like the identical web page there.

In fact offers you a exercise, in fact is immersive, makes use of patterns that aren’t an excessive amount of cognitive load. And principally, simply, we have to in some way crack the whip on the {hardware} producers and get them to construct stuff quicker for us, as a result of[00:31:00] that’s what we run into.

Cix Liv: I’d attain out to PICO although. The PICO 4, you realize, the 2 primary focuses they’ve are health and video games, they usually appear to be taking health very severely. There’s additionally a very attention-grabbing purpose for that, by the way in which.

In China, they’ve caps on what number of video, how a lot you possibly can play a online game per day. And if you happen to can persuade the federal government that it’s a health system, you escape of that limitation. In order that’s truly one of many small causes they’re hyper-focused on health, is that if they’ll persuade the federal government that it’s a health system and never a recreation system, they’ll truly escape of that limitation.

That’s a small factor I found by happening the trail of localizing to China.

Ryan DeLuca: Effectively, man, we’ve realized a lot from you. I feel we acquired like one million notes right here. This’ll positively be our longest podcast ever, to date. So, uh, actually respect it. I feel to wrap issues up, what’s subsequent for you? What’s subsequent for REK? We’ve, you’ve heard loads about, uh, these upcoming variations of the sport and what it’s not gonna [00:32:00] be, and a bit little bit of what it’s gonna be, however the place, what’s subsequent for you and, and what are you guys, uh, as much as subsequent?

Cix Liv: I suppose you’d must comply with my Twitter.

Preston Lewis: There we go. Name to motion.

Cix Liv: C I X L I V. Um, I’m keen to expose every thing in regards to the previous of how I acquired to this point, however a few of the stuff that we’re engaged on sooner or later, I’d wish to maintain underneath wraps till we announce it. We’re positively going to be constructing one thing that works in AR and VR, and we’re positively going to construct a companion utility that lets you spectate that. After which, hopefully sooner or later, transfer this into tournaments with brackets and leagues and, you realize, all of the stuff that sports activities have.

I feel one of many huge issues I wanna depart folks with, that’s one thing that, is likely to be a light-weight bulb second. Is after we have been doing our assessments, we did a pilot, down in, um, Los Angeles. There have been a number of various things that occurred that made me assume we’re happening the fitting path.

Um, there was a [00:33:00] boyfriend and girlfriend who have been, you realize, the boyfriend was going to go play in opposition to his good friend. And earlier than he performed, and he was placing on a headset, his girlfriend came to visit to him, gave him a kiss, and mentioned, “you higher win”. After which we had a second the place a dad was watching his son, and he was taking part in in opposition to his son’s good friend, and he was standing there subsequent to the TV like, you realize, cheering on his son, like, very, very clearly, cheering on his son. And he may see his son and he may see how he was taking part in his good friend and all this different stuff. And so these moments have been actually vital.

However the factor that basically mild bulb this to me, is that if this was a online game that by no means would’ve occurred, as a result of what would’ve occurred is, initially, that girlfriend can be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” Like, “we’re at a venue”, like, “why are you going and sitting and taking part in League of Legends?”

Like, you realize, “we’re right here to have enjoyable, what the fuck are you doing?” Proper? As a result of she couldn’t take part in what was occurring, as a result of she’d haven’t any [00:34:00] thought or the context of what the fuck is occurring. Proper? And so that may’ve occurred. After which the identical factor would’ve occurred with the dad and his child. The place if his child came to visit and sat down and performed a online game, although it was, you realize, quote on quote eSports, he’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing? We’re out right here to have enjoyable.” Once more, as a result of he couldn’t take part or perceive what was occurring. And so my huge obsession with this house is that I imagine if we nail this, that is greater than the whole XR house, as a result of it breaks out of the house like that Beat Saber video did 5 years in the past.

And that’s why I do that. I imagine that if that is nailed, XR sports activities develop into greater than the whole house, as a result of it could possibly get adoption from individuals who aren’t in headsets. And that’s why I’m like, mild bulb second. That is it. You realize? Now, whether or not or not the {hardware} is gonna get there in time and, you realize, [00:35:00] all this different fucking bullshit we take care of in our house is one other query. However, you realize, that’s the hope. That’s the dream.

Preston Lewis: Yeah, so, all proper, that’s on a regular basis now we have. Thanks a lot, Cix for being right here with us. I’m positive our viewers actually appreciates it. And for anybody within the viewers, as all the time, we are going to put something within the present notes to get into contact with Cix and to get entangled in what he’s doing. Actually respect it. Thanks once more.

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